Let’s Talk CJ

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Intro: Welcome to the Let’s Talk Government Podcast. A podcast that is provided for you by the department of government at Minnesota State University, Mankato. Located in Minnesota in the United States. I am your host Dr. Pat Nelson, the chairperson of the department of criminal justice. I want to thank you for joining us as we explore different topics related to government. Some may be surprising and some may not, so please enjoy.

Dr. Nelson: All right. Welcome to Episode 33 of the less talk government podcast, Heavy Metal, Rock and Roll, Politics and History. This is going to be a fun one. I'm joined by Dr. Amelia Pridemore from the Department of government and Dr. Matt Loayza from the Department of History and he's also currently our dean of the College of Social and Behavioral Sciences at Minnesota State University Mankato. Dr. Pridemore has been my guest several times, but I wanted to introduce you to Dr Loayza. He has areas of interest and research including U.S history, U.S foreign relations, and the Cold War. He's also taught a course called U.S. rock music and American society so thank you both for joining me today. So, I guess a very good starting point is, let's talk a little bit about music as a form of political and historical communication in the U.S. What is--what do you mean by saying that it's a form of communication?
Dr. Pridemore: So one of the ways that Dr. Nancy Love has argued that music is used about as political communication is that she said historically speaking, when we transition from oral to literate societies, A lot of people, particularly those from historically underrepresented groups were absolutely cut out of the social and political dialogue. Because if you look at access to education for years on end, you know, forms of education we're literally denied to women and minorities. So the styles of communication that became the most preferred were those that were associated with the higher class, generally those of white men. So, what happens is if you pluralize your forms of communication that are in the social and political dialogue, in other words you're not just listening to a politician speech but you're also listening to, say a politically oriented song or a piece of visual art that may communicate an ideal. When you pluralize these communication styles you actually create a more democratic society, and you have more voices in the social and political discourse.
Dr. Nelson: Sorry. So Matt you taught a history course on rock and roll music and American society, how do you see music as a form of historical communication?
Dr. Loayza: Well, I mean it's a great question and it really goes beyond the compounds of what I taught in my class which really- you know, rock and roll arguably starts late 40s. So what I did was I took it back further to the African American roots of rock and roll music which you can go all the way back to the songs that slaves would sing on Southern plantations that would really clarify just that they well understood the nature of their servitude. And we're not happy with that state of servitude one bit and so that certainly goes on. And then to fast forward to the late 1940s the interesting thing about post World War ll society with music as a form of communication I think is, rock and roll emerged as really an oppositional force, but it did so in an environment where just forms of just general popular entertainment were becoming widely commercialized and becoming more national as far as the audience. So, the ability for musicians to speak to I guess a larger group you could say really became, on the one hand navigated by the emerging music industry or the changing emerging music industry, top 40 radio, records, so forth and so on, that were looking for products to sell. And then on the other hand, musicians of various types looking to break in and often create a kind of voice that would address social and political issues and then that certainly gets contested throughout the rest of the Cold War, 20th century and continues in a modified form today.
Dr. Nelson: This amazing because if you think about it, we live in a society where we hear artists from all over the United States, in the world but back when you're talking in the 1940s, a lot of exposure was only local so those messages had to get out nationally. All right so you kind of started with your timeframe of rock and roll there. Where does metal, heavy metal, whatever kind of metal you want to call it fit in with rock and roll? I'm going to open this up to either one of you.
Dr. Pridemore: So here's how metal-- how I bridge over from broader musical communication to metal. So the kind of voice that metal brings in specifically is more as generally speaking a more dissonant voice in society. Somebody who backs against the mainstream. A lot of times they're not exactly happy with how mainstream society, whether it be politicians, mainstream media, their parents, whoever it may be, may have some issues with those groups right. Often kind of angry and so what metal does is it not only gives them an outlet to express just anger but it also gives them a way to do so in a way that comes at the people that they are not happy with and the institutions that they're not happy with. Now how does this work? So Richard [inaudible], one of the things that's unique about a lot of metal communication is that it does not use euphemistic language or very rarely uses it. And when it comes to how it describes social issues, it's just raw, it’s in your face, it tells it like it is. No holds barred. Versus saying something polite as a way to kind of, let's not offend anybody shall we. But one thing that's argued is that when you use euphemistic language you actually exert more violence on a disenfranchised group. Even if your lyrical content is violent which has been a criticism of a lot of heavy metal music. The thing is, is if you—the argument can be made is that if you are sanitizing the situation, you're actually exerting a form of violence on that group by not showing what their reality is.
Dr. Nelson: So Matt I'm going to kind of throw it over to you. I mean I'm going to just confess right on air here all three of us are metal heads and we're a little older than 18. So we've been this way for quite a while. What is it about heavy metal music that captures people? I mean, what do you think that-- this is an opinion thing, what about it captures people?
Dr. Loayza: Oh, well the opinion thing I'll just, well you could just start by saying its inherent awesomeness, but I guess we need to go a little deeper than that, right? Well, let me throw a bomb in there just say how would you define metal? I think that's because I think what Amelia is getting at with the sense of how lyrics are perceived by the audience gets to that whole idea of authenticity which has been I think a really, really big deal among metal fans since its origins late 1960s to early 1970s. As far as what metal is and why it isn’t. So we could probably spend an hour just debating whether or not, like as Roger Walser puts it in one of his books and some of my friends said it too, is rush heavy metal? The resounding answer I think for most of us would be hell no. But if you look at it on paper you'd have a good case. So maybe we should talk about what is metal and just kind of throw it back out there. Because I think the answer is like what makes it I think so compelling to a lot of people.
Dr. Nelson: Actually, that's a great point Matt. You know the same controversies around Nickelback right. Are they a heavy metal band or not? No, they throw out a metal song every once in a while, they've got like two or three in their catalog but they're not a heavy metal band, right?
Dr. Loayza: Right.
Dr. Nelson: So, what do you guys think? What do you define as heavy metal? What do you expect on a heavy metal band? I expect them to just vibrate my rib cage with the bass and the drums and then have the most awesome guitar riffs. And to me the vocals are kind of at the end of it because if I don't feel the guitars, the bass, and the drums, I'm not vibing with it.
Dr. Pridemore: I think for me a lot of it is kind of the way you described it you know give thinking less like academic and thinking like the 14-year-old who latched on to this and actually decided to take it onward to making a career out of studying it for some odd reason. But thinking back to the teenager Dr. Pridemore, I would say that probably just the intensity is just one of the things that just drew people like me into it. Yeah, it's loud, it's intense. One of the things in terms of sound that's that often defines it, is a very dissonant sort of sound. So not to go too deep in the musical theory but one of the things that a lot of metal bands, particularly Black Sabbath, pioneered in the days before was using a lot of musical tunings, strumming patterns, etc. that was designed purposefully to kind of rattle your cages. It wasn't designed-- it wasn't meant to be pretty and on purpose. We are going to show you something raw and ugly. And that's what we want. It's no accidents. So, that that kind of ugliness along with the intensity I think is some of the key things that you can often find in metal.
Dr. Loayza: Yeah, I think I would agree. And I'd say also to me the visual imagery and overall vibe is really important. So for example, I think probably we'd all agree that Motley Crue in some way or form is a metal band right? I mean we could just get bogged down on whether or not they're just metal versus hair metal or something but they're a metal band. But they covered Helter Skelter, which was a Beatle song on the White Album, and if you listen to the original recording it sounds as metal as anything that Zeppelin or Deep Purple did but probably not, you're not going to get too many people raising their hand saying that the Beatles were the first metal band, right? So I think when you just think about what a metal band looks like it, I think it's pretty eclectic and it's flexible. It doesn't have to be leather. Doesn't have to be spandex. Now that a lot of them are aging it doesn't necessarily have to be long hair. I'd say you could throw all them in together and you'd have a good start to it but it's definitely not the sweater vests and ties from like the late 50s. It's not the matching suits of say, early Motown with the Four Tops, Temptations, that kind of thing. And even though there's some overlap with the leather like with punk, I think you can pretty much often tell apart visually punks from metal heads. There might be a little bit of overlap there. And I'd say with the visual look I would include that with stage performances, album art, and even not really visual but just as far as identifiers go like the names of the bands. I mean like you hear of Napalm Death and it's probably not a folk thing, right?
Dr. Nelson: I'll go to one of my favorite groups is Metallica. And if you just even start looking at the discography, part of what I expect out of a metal band is not to toe the line and do the social norms, right? Because I mean some of my favorite songs: For Whom the Bell Tolls, Enter Sandman, One, Nothing Else Matters. I mean when you just start going through that it's like you don't have to follow the mainstream there's other paths you can take. And most of my metal songs I really enjoy are talking about that. So that kind of brings us back into our topic which was a good idea to define metal but how does metal help those that are looking at counterculture, anti-culture, outside the norms? How does that figure into what metal is to politics and society in general?
Dr. Pridemore: I think one of the things that you mentioned that was mentioned is the differences between metal and punk. One of the things that's been seen as a dividing point between metal and punk in terms of political communication has been that a lot of times metal is seen as an individualistic rebellion versus punk being a more collective rebellion. So, for example metal is more about standing out on your own, being your own person versus hey everybody we don't like what the man is doing so let's all get together and let them have it. Yeah metal is-- well I'll use a quote from Maria Brink, the front woman from ‘In this Moment,’ so she's known for example, of you know we talked about aesthetics but sometimes a lot of people but the norm, so she's blonde, attractive woman, and kind of makes it known that yeah this is this is me and who I am. She'll often dress in like tutus and pink when she performs on stage and people have come to her and said like why are you dressing all girly girl when you're on stage why aren’t you wearing black? And she says, well I am being me as an individual and isn't that what metal is all about? So in a way it provides that avenue for those who just kind of want to go out on their own versus okay maybe I want to stand up to the man but I want to do it with a group of like-minded people. Sometimes wanting to just step out on your own is more appealing than trying to organize.
Dr. Loayza: I think if you look at the origins of metal and how metal fans since the 1970s were perceived by the mainstream it kind of feeds into that and the oppositional culture is, I think, perpetrated by that broader sense of mainstream society whether or not it's the media, church, teachers, parents, whatever. Really, I think taking a very early angle on metal music and metal fans is really an unsophisticated form of music that really doesn't have much artistic merit. You know scholars have destroyed that and you know just examine how many metal guitarists were classically trained, for example, but just really looking at metal as a derivative form of art, with very, very troubled, and perhaps not so smart burnouts that listen to it, right? So I think from those early origins you have that sense of us versus them that carries on into different forms today. You go from I think primarily at its origins very much a white male audience and that changes over time. But you know in the 70s when all the attacks on metal going into ‘78 I think are well, it's violent, dark, sometimes satanic music that appeals to youth that can add this mesmerizing kind of pied piper effect on it. It really, really sends alarm bells and that gets manifested through a lot of the controversies in the 1980s.
Dr. Nelson: Well and the drug culture, right? The drug culture associated with heavy metal until you realize it's actually there among all music genres. Alright so this actually brings me to-- since we're in the 70s and 80s here, let's spend a little time talking about the PMRC, which was the parents Music Resource Center. What was the impact of PMRC and how did it play into heavy metal, politics, and history?
Dr. Pridemore: I would say that the overarching narrative about the PMRC when we look at it now in the present day, at the beginning the overall impact of the PMRC controversies was that the music industry saved itself from government regulation, but in doing so found itself self-censoring a whole lot more so there was sort of a chilling effect that happened in the immediate aftermath of the PMRC. The thing is, is now especially with technology, where you can even bypass not only radio stations, but you can bypass record labels, the whole nine yards. Now it's basically, it's all of that's out the window now. So we went from contracting in terms of the content that that was released to no holds barred in terms of what's out there now with technology. You don't have to worry about Tipper Gore if you've got a YouTube channel you know.
Dr. Nelson: Very true, very true.
Dr. Loayza: I was going to say she was not ready for the internet back in the early 80s. Yeah, I think the PMRC is a great window into shifting political types that you see with the rise of Ronald Reagan first as California Governor with the counterculture really manifesting itself really strongly in the Bay Area and then nationwide. You know Reagan makes a bid that comes pretty close to unseating Gerald Ford in 1976 as the Republican presidential nominee. He doesn't make it but it's close and he's riding that broader theme of family values, of course anti-communism too but once he becomes President I think what the PMRC shows is that it's certainly not just Reagan. I mean Tipper Gore obviously was the wife of then Senator Al Gore the Tennessee Democrat. So I guess you had some bipartisan consensus on censorship. I think the four founding members of the PMRC were nicknamed the Washington [inaudible] it’s because they were pretty heavy hitters, they had influence, and I think their campaign, for those of you who might not know much about the PMRC, this group of I would say self-appointed moral arbiters of what was right and what was wrong, were extremely well connected at the time. As professor Pridemore noted, and you can call me Matt, but anyway I digress. So with those well-connected Washington wives weaning on the music industry and say hey, basically you guys got to cut it out and put warning labels on your music. And really it was not just warning labels I think it was more like keep an eye on those artists that you even have to think about putting warning labels on right? They had bet their top 15 filthy list of songs. I think about half of them, maybe slightly over half of them were metal songs and the whole pervasive idea was to protect gullible American children from things like sex, violence, and the occult. And I think as you pointed out you just kind of think, oh boy you guys don’t know what’s coming in about 15 or so years with the internet, YouTube, things like that. But it was certainly something that was pretty captivating for Americans at the time whether or not they were kids playing music or musicians. I mean if you remember Dee Snider of Twisted Sister testified at the senate hearings of the PMRC, instigated, and pretty much destroyed that stereotype that we were talking about earlier about how metal musicians and their fans just be being these burnout idiots. It took them to school.
Dr. Pridemore: I remember that actually. That was purposely done. He said he actually walked into the hearings looking like the stereotypical, as you put a burnout idiot, and he actually wrote his speech that he delivered to Congress on a piece of wadded up notebook paper. And he said, speaking in retrospect, he says, here I came in there and I look like the bad kid with his homework and man they thought I was just going to be an idiot and then boom he just lit a fire underneath them in how eloquent he was and just how boom he just came right at them with when he was attacked. For example, when they mentioned the Twisted Sister song ‘Under the Blade,’ and it was seen as some kind of like cult ritual type of deal. He explained that the inspiration was his friend being scared about surgery and [inaudible] said that Tipper Gore had thought that the song was about sadomasochism. Well, you know somebody looking for references to surgery would find them and if Mrs. Gore was looking for references to sadomasochism she would have found them too it's all in the beholder so yeah. But the thing was, Dee Snider like you mentioned just absolutely destroyed them and part of the way he did that was just not letting them know what was coming by himself walking in like they would expect and starting to begin like unwinding the piece of paper right and then he had them.
Dr. Loayza: Yeah-- Sorry, go ahead.
Dr. Nelson: No, go ahead Matt.
Dr. Loayza: I was just going to say the other thing of course is that from a parental point of view what's interesting that they picked those 15 and I guess what I'm getting at is there are certainly some elements in heavy metal lyrics or by that point MTV videos and just visual imagery, that I think you could at least throughout the debate and be fair and say yeah I could see where that would be objectionable, right? I think W.A.S.P. is on that filthy 15 so it's like yeah you might have a case there. There is a lot of considerable attention given to Ozzy's 1981 song ‘Suicide Solution,’ and that question disproved them but the big debate on the 80s as to whether or not Ozzy's lyrics promoted teen suicide. You have a replay of that in 1990 with Judas Priest. As we might touch on later I think when it comes to issues like misogyny and probably others there. Again, is it exclusively metal and not other genres? Of course not. But I think you couldn't deny that those themes would be there, and I think that's probably what gave the PMRC at least some support as the 80’s went on.
Dr. Nelson: Well, actually Matt you just kind of brought up what I was going to. I laughed because the Twisted Sister song that's on the filthy 15, is ‘We're Not Going to Take it.’ It's like of all the songs of Twisted Sister, that's the one they put on there. Some of these are just kind of hilarious.
Dr. Loayza: Yeah where did that come from. It’s like I could’ve given you 10 better songs to put on that list.
Dr. Nelson: Exactly. So this actually is kind of leading us into the next area I want to kind of talk about, is kind of some politics. What is the influence of not just heavy metal but rock and roll? Because I'm going to point towards Rage Against the Machine. Because it is a rock band kind of skirting the line a little bit, but it is a very political rock band and there are cities that are afraid of Rage Against the Machine performing in their city because of things that have happened in the past. But what do you both see as the impact of rock and roll and heavy metal on politics and getting people involved in politics, outside of a conventional norm?
Dr. Pridemore: I think in a way, you know you mentioned Rage Against the Machine it's sort of shall we say kind of speaks to somebody who might find CNN boring. One thing about you listening to a blistering solo from-- and yes I'll admit my bias, one of my all-time favorite guitarists is Tom Morello of Rage Against the Machine. But there's something that's just in general more fun about listening to some of Tom Morello extraordinarily, not only just blistering, but just really out their kind of use of effects and whatnot. And the thing is, is who can say that CNN could do something just as interesting, right? So when you’re talking about somebody who might, especially somebody younger, who might just find politics to be boring this can be a way of saying hey, this isn't exactly your dad's way of being political and interjecting yourselves in the political dialogue. And like I said it opens the door just like Nancy Love said to different people.
Dr. Loayza: Yeah, I would agree. I think-- and really I'm kind of thinking back to what I've looked at really, really carefully in teaching classes and even kind of looking at just some of my foreign relations work where you see, particularly in the 60s more poke activists then some mainstream groups coming out. And arguably at least trying to influence larger groups of people with specific political stances whether or not it's John Lennon and ‘Give Peace a Chance,’ things like that or Peter, Paul, and Mary. I guess I'm kind of curious as to Amelia where you see metal fitting into that. because I think as you pointed out if you look at early metal and punk and metal, more or less, at least at that point taking more of the individual liberty argument, how does that really manifest itself into something that's more explicitly political? I think, yeah, Tom Morello definitely fits in, there's some other more songs I could see that kind of fit in on the periphery and then probably more kind of some bands are just unapologetically nonpolitical party bands I guess, for lack of a better word.
Dr. Pridemore: I think one of the things is sometimes kind of what Floker, same guy who argued about euphemistic language has said, music doesn't have to be overtly political, like Rage Against the Machines for example, to be political and to be political communication. So some of the examples he uses are songs that depict stories of war. One of them being my all-time favorite song, ‘Allison Chains Rooster,’ which speaks to the story of Vietnam veteran Jerry Cantrell my musical and personal hero’s dad was a Vietnam War veteran and rooster was his dad's story of surviving Vietnam. Also songs like ‘Guns and Roses Civil War,’ Metallica's ‘One’ about World War l. Even though the songs did not come out with the songwriters political stance on war, sometimes even at all, nonetheless, hearing these stories and in that non euphemistic raw fashion, that hits you. You start developing feelings about this person and people like them and what they've experienced. And you think about things like war for example, should we maybe think twice before putting somebody through having to take their pills against mosquito death, and their body breathing, his dying breath, right? Even if it's not overt, it's still going to have that effect of communicating a political ideal not only from a person who's affected but also to somebody who might be receptive.
Dr. Nelson: Well I mean the first song that came to mind when you start talking about wars, of course ‘War Pigs,’ by Black Sabbath. That's probably the first one that comes to mind and it's technically a war protest songs. Alright, well I know we could talk about this forever but let's kind of move along. What do you see changing-- probably let's focus on metal here and then Matt I'm going to ask you about dealing with metal with your kids. Because you're the only one with kids here that listens to metal. But before that Amelia what do you see changing about diversity, inclusiveness, culture, and heavy metal in probably the last 10-15 years.
Dr. Pridemore: Last 10 or 15 years I would say, especially when it comes to metal in the United States, we've definitely seen a large, comparatively speaking, an exponential increase in the prominence and number of women and persons of color in the metal scene. Allice in Chains and Metallica two the biggest bands out there, are now half nonwhite. Allice in Chains words was really gutsy and they went to look for a new vocalist to replace the beloved Layne Staley. They picked a black man to be at the front of the band. And now that's not even that big of a deal now it's like, okay. The fans are accepting and welcoming as a whole. Hispanic and Latino artists have been some of them like Tom Araya from Slayer or Robert Trujillo now of Metallica have been around for decades. And then with women, Hailstorm, one of my favorite bands Lizzy Hale, the front woman of the band. Hailstorm became the first female fronted band in 2013 to win the metal Grammy. So we've seen a lot of diversifications in terms of race and gender within who's prominent and we've even seen some increases now of women of color entering the metal scene so that's been some changes too. Also in terms of where it comes from, more artists are now coming from and some of the darkest music is now coming from rural areas, namely Appalachia, as well as some of the farmlands like Iowa home state of slipknot. So, there's definitely some shifts in terms of who's on the stage per se in all senses of the word. And as a result we're going to see definitely some different points of view and stylistic changes as a result, in terms of the years.
Dr. Nelson: All right before we start thinking about wrapping up Matt I'm going to put you on the spot. You've got two boys that are now college age that are also metal heads. What's it like having two generations of metal heads? And do you see a difference between how you listen to the music and how they do or how they talk about it?
Dr. Loayza: Well I remember when my younger son Nate was in eighth grade I was playing a stone song and he just said, old. And he was referring to Keith Richards sand that was back, oh man probably about 10 years ago. I guess my younger son, or pardon me, my older son is actually more of a punk fan but he's open to metal. My younger son is more I think, he's kind of like me. He will listen to a lot of different genres. I can go Motown to Beatles to Judas Priest and Maiden in the blink of an eye. I think he's kind of similar that way and pretty eclectic. I think that from what I've seen my kids are open to a lot of different kinds of musical tastes and to that point I think all of the observations that Amelia was making on how metal is really expanded, as far as its inclusiveness, is all to the good. Because I think it certainly helps reinforce the idea that generalizations in music usually fall apart at any particular point of scrutiny. This is a good example of that. And I think also that inclusivity is really good and indicates that metal music in particular, really isn't restricted by very rigid confines even how much I think people try to, it's just really hard to put specific-- you can't put it in a box and just say hey that's heavy metal and walk away, right? As far as my kids listening to music they've got a broad array of tastes and I think they're-- if I had tried to censor them from the outset, I mean we're way beyond warning labels right so I think that would have been a failed endeavor from the start. I do remember when I took my older son, Brendan to Green Day for the first time, I did have a talk with my wife and kind of worried about lyrics, F-bombs, other things that Billy Joel is known for and, I just pointed out that Brendan had played hockey for over five years and anything that Billy Joe had said he probably had heard in the locker room anyway. And certainly I think metal bands, at least that we listened to, there was nothing out there that would be epically terrible to the point where I wouldn't say you can listen to it all. Some of it might be a conversation and other elements of it just I think provoke some interesting discussions and dialogue. I mean probably my biggest legacy if you want to call it that, for better for worse, is exposing my kids to Iron Maiden and Maiden has a lot of historically theme songs. And so you know you can talk about the Crimean War if you listen to ‘The Trooper,’ there's all sorts of stuff that I think has led to a lot of good talks with my kids and just other metal fans that you run into. People sometimes are surprised I think if you're coming from academia and then all of a sudden someone finds out that you're into metal and then you have all sorts of other talks that come up that probably wouldn't have otherwise, right?
Dr. Nelson: Absolutely. All right well I'm going to have everybody kind of give their final thoughts. My first one I like to share is that heavy metal was actually one of the very first genres I listened to that addressed mental illness. Mental illness and suicide have been the topics of several songs and they never approached it from a soft way. It was, this is what is happening, especially depression, bipolar. So that really kind of figures into politics and history as far as I'm concerned. So I'm going to pass it over here to you Amelia, why don't you do your final thoughts and then we'll let Matt do his.

Dr. Pridemore: So, kind of like how metal has kind of opened the doors and also it's along the vein of what was being said about, people are surprised sometimes when you're an academic and a metal head at the same time too. So, metal was the way that, it was the thing that opened the doors to me to a world that I never dreamed that I could ever be a part of or would ever be a part of and that is academia. And so the thing that got me, the thing that made me decide to go on the pursuit of a PhD was when I thought, gee lets research metal for fun when I was in a research methods class and my master's program. Well low and behold, my professor who was very supportive of this Dr. George Davis of Marshall University, forwarded me an email that was a call for papers for an academic conference on metal. And it was just to show me that, yes, there are people in the larger scholarly conversation who take an interest in what I love. And it got the gears going and I thought wow, this is a door that could be open to me and the rest is history. And so, just like metal literally opened the door to me, a first-generation student from West Virginia, having a PhD it opens the door to so many people period who may have never had a way to enter the social and political dialogue in the way that they see fit and uncovering things that nobody else would talk about. It, kind of like what you said Pat, it opens doors. It may not be the most traditional doors and it may not be the most happy. N sounding doors but nonetheless it does open some very needed doors and opens the doors to some very needed conversations that we need to have.
Dr. Nelson: Matt your final thoughts there sorry.
Dr. Loayza: For me I think I was first attracted to metal by a lot of the visual iconography, the lyrics that really, I think if you look at many of the 70s and early bands just had this kind of air of mystery, little bit of edge to them, whether or not it would be-- for me it was Black Sabbath, probably more Led Zeppelin, couple of others that drew me in. And really, really epic themes that were pretty eclectic and spanned a variety of different realms and since I was starting to get interested in history at that point too, just kind of fit right in. It leaves you a lot of different ways. Funny thing for me was, maybe this is back in the day when you could go to music land and just flip through album covers, when a friend of mine just randomly said he wanted-- he was interested in knowing if I'd go to a Grateful Dead concert. All I knew about the Dead was their album covers with the skeletons. I actually assumed they were metal and then that was obviously a big surprise when I hit up that concert live. Sometimes it takes you in unexpected directions but really just a lot of it's like a weird carnival ride with a lot of loud fun on the way and like Emilia said, although I think early critics would have dismissed the possibility of having insightful interesting conversations on a variety of social issues, I've certainly found that to be the case. And I think, like both of you, hope that continues because as you know there's certainly no shortage of topics to talk about and any insights you can get from wherever I think are going to be needed in the years ahead. So with that horns up and rock on.

Dr. Nelson: Well with that thank you both for joining me. As I said we could talk about this for hours, we might come back to it again in a future podcast so thank you.

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