Profile: Retired Lt. Jody Nelson
- Welcome to the
Let's Talk CJ podcast.
I am your host, Dr.
Pat Nelson, a member
of the Department of Criminal
Justice at Minnesota State
University, Mankato.
Thank you for joining us, as
we explore different topics
about criminal justice
and also profile
current and retired
professionals
from the criminal
justice system.
We hope you learned
something new things
about these topics and amazing
people, so please enjoy.
Thank you for joining us today
for this episode of Let's Talk
CJ, as we talk with retired
Lieutenant Jody Nelson, who
spent about 25 years
in law enforcement
and was really part of that
first wave of women joining
law enforcement in the 1980s.
She served as a dispatcher at
the Itasca County Sheriff's
Office in Grand
Rapids, Minnesota, then
a part time police officer
in Pierz, Minnesota.
Then she served as a federal
police officer for the Federal
Protective Service stationed
at Fort Snelling, which covered
the entire Twin Cities area.
Finally, she joined the
Minneapolis Police Department
in January of 1986 and
retired in May of 2006.
And for full disclosure, in
case I slip, she is my mother,
and I'm very proud of her
and consider her a mentor.
And she was married to a
law enforcement officer
and has a father that was
a law enforcement officer.
So if I'm a blue blood, she
is definitely a blue blood.
So thank you for
joining us, Jody.
So can you start
with telling us,
how did you decide to
get into law enforcement?
- OK.
Well, you know, my dad
was a police officer,
and he was a deputy Sheriff
in Adams County, Colorado.
And then we moved to Alaska,
and he was a police officer
in Seward, Alaska.
It was one of those things that
I wanted to be like my dad,
so being in law enforcement
was one of those things,
but you have to take
into consideration
this was late '60s, early '70s,
and women in law enforcement
really wasn't the thing.
But I had met my
future husband, who
was a military policeman
when he was stationed
at Fort Richardson, Alaska.
I met him in Seward,
and we then got married.
When we married, he had become a
conservation officer, or a game
warden, back in those days, in
Minnesota where he was from.
We moved to Pierz because
that was his duty station.
Back in the day, as I call
it, being the wife of a game
warden, you answered the phone.
If your husband
was out and working
and those type of things, you
were basically his dispatcher.
Because everybody would call
the house and go, oh, yeah,
we've got a deer that
was hit by a car.
Can you come pick it up?
Or it's still alive, can you
come and take care of it?
Those type of things.
So being a wife of a
conservation officer
also gives you a lot of the law
enforcement type of background.
- So I just want to clarify, so
when you say back in the day,
we're talking about
the early 1970s, right?
- Yes.
- Yeah, OK.
- Yes.
Unfortunately, he was killed
in the line of duty in 1975,
and from there, I
was still trying
to figure out what I wanted to
do with my life and everything.
And the Sheriff of Itasca
County was a retired game warden
that I knew, and when
a dispatcher's position
came open, I asked if
it would be possible
if I could take that position.
And he said, sure, no problem.
Dispatcher did not need to
have any kind of education
because didn't have any
education at that point in time
and everything,
and it worked well
because I was the night
dispatcher, so that my kids,
they had a babysitter who stayed
with them, while I worked,
and I worked the night shift,
and I took care of my kids
during the day.
One of the best stories
that I can tell you
about being a dispatcher,
because this goes back
to women in law enforcement,
was that one night, a lady
had called and wanted a deputy.
And at that time, the deputies
went home at 2:00 o'clock
in the morning.
There was no reason to
have a deputy on from 2:00
until 7:00 because there
was very few calls.
And if you needed them,
you called them out.
Anyway, a little, old lady--
you could tell by her voice
that she was a little old lady
and that called and said,
I need to have a deputy.
And it was just a
matter of she wanted
to talk to somebody
at that point in time.
And I said, well,
unfortunately, I'm
the only one who is
on duty right now.
You can talk to me.
And she goes, well, if
you're the only one who's
there that I can talk to, this
county is really falling apart.
- But you were basically, you
were the entire county law
enforcement from
2:00 AM to 6:00 AM
until the deputies
came back on then.
- That's correct.
Plus I was also the jailer,
because it was a dispatcher
jailer position, so
anybody that was in jail
was also my responsibility
and everything.
But like I said, I chuckled
about that for many years,
because you could tell that
she was going, you're a female.
I just-- that's not right.
We're in big trouble
if it's a female who's
actually responsible here for
our county and everything.
- So then how did you end up
going to the position in Pierz?
- OK.
Because of-- let's see.
How do you put this?
Because of my life and
that type of thing,
I had decided that
instead of living
in Grand Rapids and that type of
thing, that I'd rather be back
in Pierz, where I had lived
for five years with Russ,
my husband, and I had friends
there and that type of thing.
My kids were only
four, four, and two
when we moved to
Pierz and everything.
Well, once I got to Pierz and
I lived in Pierz for about
a year, I guess it
was, and once again,
being familiar with
the law enforcement
people there, the chief
of Pierz, Herman Hoheisel,
had approached me and said,
would you like to become--
and this was in 1980.
He asked if I would like to
become a part-time police
officer.
And I said, oh, that
would be perfect.
This is what I'm looking for and
everything because part time is
supposed to mean part time.
And you work when
the chief tells
you and that type of thing.
And it was five or six hours,
maybe three or four times
a week, which worked out well.
Once again, in Minnesota, to
be a part-time police officer,
you didn't have to have
the education requirement.
You had to do a certain
number of hours of continuing
education, but it
wasn't that you
had to have at least
a two-year degree
and have to go
through skills and all
of those kind of things.
So like I said, the part-time
position worked out perfectly
for me and everything.
And the thing there
was that it got
to be that the chief
went, oh, this is great.
I've got Jody.
She'll work anytime
I ask her to,
and it basically became I was
working the full-time position,
and he was working the
part-time position.
After an incident where he ended
up in trouble and everything
like that, I went this
is absolutely ridiculous.
There's no reason that
I should be doing this.
So I might as well
get the education
so that I can actually work
full time for a department.
And trying to do logistics
with kids and everything
like that, I made arrangements
with my sister, who
lived in Wisconsin,
to live with her,
while I went to school, because
Waukesha Technical Institute
had a law enforcement program.
So I picked up the girls,
and we moved to Wisconsin,
and that only lasted about six
months, no not even six months,
a semester.
- A semester, yeah.
- It was a semester
and everything,
and I decided that this
just isn't working.
I can't live with my sister.
I'm sorry, and everything.
So I made an application
to Hennepin County--
- Hennepin Technical College.
Hennepin Technical College.
It's called Hennepin
Technical College now.
That's the name of it now.
- OK, yeah, but I think it
was called Hennepin Community
College back at that time.
Anyway, whatever.
But I got an
application, and I got
accepted into the two-year
law enforcement program.
I basically put the two-year
program into a year.
And once I got through
the program there,
a position for the
Federal Protective Service
came available out
at Fort Snelling.
- OK, I'm going to
stop you for a second.
How many women were in
your class during college?
Do you remember?
Were there a couple?
Were there a handful,
anything like that?
- You know, I really
don't remember.
I was so focused on I
need to get this done,
and going to school night and
day and all those other kind
of things, really, I
can't tell you how many.
There was probably a handful,
but I don't know for sure.
- So we know you
looked up to your dad.
How did your dad react
when you told him
you were going to school
for law enforcement?
- Actually, he was very proud
of me becoming a police officer,
but other than that, he really
didn't say anything in regards
to it.
But like I said, he was proud
that I became a police officer.
- Yeah, I can just say
from personal experience
he held that very
close to his vest
until he was much
older in his life,
about how proud he was
of both Jody and myself.
OK, so why was the
Federal Protective Service
position appealing to you?
- Because the Federal
Protective Service,
it liked the idea that
I had a two-year degree,
but it didn't require me
to have a two-year degree,
but the other thing that it
did is it sent me to FLETC,
down in Georgia,
which basically,
is the federal
government skills course.
- Yes, the Federal Law
Enforcement Training Center
is what FLETC is, so Yep.
- Yes, and basically what that
did is, they paid my skills.
And once I came back, it meant
I could take the Reciprocity
Test with Minnesota to become
qualified as a Minnesota police
officer.
- So you took kind of a
step-wise path getting those
education requirements and skill
requirements, but you got it.
You got to the point
where you could
be licensed in Minnesota if
you took the Reciprocity test.
That was good.
So when you were
down at FLETC, do you
remember being with other
women, or was it mostly men?
Do you remember?
- No.
Actually, at FLETC, in my class,
I think we had five females,
and like I said, being with
the federal government,
they were from all
over the United States.
So there wasn't anybody
else from Minnesota
who was in my FLETC class.
- Do you remember how
big your class was?
Was there about
50 in your class?
- No, I would say that there
was maybe 40, at the most.
I don't even think
it was that much.
- The only reason I ask
is that historically,
from that very first
wave of, really,
women entering law
enforcement in the 1980s,
even through today,
we are only seeing
a really steady 12% female.
So having five females
in your FLETC class
in a class of 40 or
50 is still holding
right at that same
number that we see.
It's just amazing we haven't
increased that historically.
- That's correct.
- So you came back
and worked with FPS,
and I hope you don't
mind, I'm going
to skip a little bit of FPS,
although what do you think
was the most challenging part
or unique part of that job?
- Basically, with
FPS was the fact
that I was the only one out
there, because I work nights.
And once again, I
was the only one
out there for all of
the Twin Cities areas
for the federal buildings
and that type of thing.
So once again, it's that
they put you out there
and say, do your job and
do as you're expected,
and it's still the
fact, like you said,
is that there wasn't that many
females in law enforcement.
So I'm going to
digress for a second
because before we
get to Minneapolis.
I always say this because I
am much taller than my mom.
When they talk about
women in law enforcement,
one of the criticisms for a long
time was, they're too small.
They're not strong enough.
And my mom is 5' 3"
on a really good day
with the right shoes, right?
And I'm about 5' 10", so
I've got my mom on height,
but did you ever feel like
your size was a disadvantage?
- No, I never felt my
size was a disadvantage,
and one of the reasons is is
because when I was a part-time
police officer in Pierz, one of
the educational things that I
had done was doing a
self-defense class.
And everybody else
that was in the class
were guys and had
decided that, well, we'll
show Jodi you know
what this is all about.
Well, the first guy
that came at me--
because I had taken
enough, I knew
enough of how to protect
myself and everything,
and the pointers
that they were giving
and everything like that.
So I just leaned down, through
the guy over my shoulder,
and he ended up
flat on his back,
and everybody laughed
and had a good time.
And after that, they
went, don't mess with her,
because she knows
how to take you down.
So like I said, but
that's where it was.
And my size had never really--
I never really thought
anything about it.
I'm not a little, petit
person and everything.
I'm short, but I'm
stocky and everything.
But I think that where a
lot of the times that some
of the criticism comes
in about the females
are the ones that are 5' 2"
and weigh less than 100 pounds,
that you're going, oh,
anybody could pick her
up and throw her wherever.
- Right.
But there's definitely
defensive tactics and things
that people any size can do.
I mean, size does not
make the police officer.
Size does not make a
good police officer.
Well, thank you for
letting me cut in on that.
I just wanted anybody listening
to have a visual of that.
So why Minneapolis?
How did you end
up in Minneapolis?
- Well, one of the
things is working
for the federal government,
they can transfer you
anywhere they decide
to, and I did not
want to leave Minnesota,
and unfortunately, I
did not have enough seniority
for when they started
moving people out
of Fort Snelling,
because they were downsizing,
to be able to stay there.
And Minneapolis was hiring, and
so I applied to Minneapolis,
and it was one of those
things that I had experience,
I had the education,
I already had skills,
and those were
the type of things
that they were looking for
at Minneapolis and hiring.
- So how many women were in
your class when you got hired?
- You should have asked
me this beforehand,
so that I could have counted.
- It's OK.
It was probably
a handful, right?
- I think it was--
let's see, it was Nancy.
I think there was six.
- OK.
And what size was your
class that got hired?
Do you remember?
- Probably 35.
OK, so yeah, we're still
holding at that same percentage,
so all right.
So you get hired.
You start with an
Academy in Minneapolis.
Now, I assume all of your
Academy cadre officers
and instructors
were male, right?
- Yes.
- So anything significant
in the Academy
that you can remember or
just kind of went through it
and then got out on FTL?
- Well, you also have to
realize is I was much older
when I got hired at Minneapolis
than most of the people who
were in my class, because
when I started at Minneapolis,
I was 34.
And being already
established in my life,
more so of all of
a sudden, people
saying you have to do
this and this and this
and this and this,
and I'm going, ah,
no, I don't, that I butted
heads with the training staff
and that type of thing.
But it's one of those things
is you have to be a person,
and you have to stand up if
they're doing something wrong,
or if it's something that
you're going, I can't do that.
They need to figure out
that, yes, I'm a female,
and I'm an older female, so
what are you going to do in
regards to making things
work out just because I'm not
21 years old and I can run five
miles without catching a breath
and those type of things.
But like I said, going
through the Academy
was a little bit of
a challenge on both
my side and the
administration side,
but like I said, once I got
through it, it was fine.
- I'm just throwing
this out here.
I don't know if
you know it or not,
you were the only one
that was an actual mother
during the Academy
for your class, right?
- That's correct.
- Do you know if you were
the first one that had
kids to go through the Academy?
Do you know?
Because I mean, most of
them came in pretty young
into the Academy setting.
- Yeah.
I never actually
thought of that,
but it very well
could have been that I
was one of the first ones.
The other females that had came
on the Department and that--
well, Marie, when she came on
the department was a mother.
Yeah, she had Amanda.
And that was retired
Lieutenant Marie Brzezinski,
and she came on about
six months before I did.
But like I said, there was
not a whole lot of them
because you're
right, most of them
were much younger
in regards to when
they came on the department,
and they were just
out of school and
those type of things.
And even the first females
that were hired for Minneapolis
in the middle '70s,
late '70s, they
were hired when they
were young as well,
that they didn't have
families established.
- Yeah.
OK.
So you got through the Training
Academy, where most of them
were probably younger
than you anyway,
and now, you're going to
go out to field training.
And I just want to give
some context for anybody
listening to this,
is Minneapolis works
rotating shifts, so it was
rotating eight-hour shifts,
right?
- Yes.
And you rotated through
days, dawns, and middles.
in that order.
- Yeah, so that
meant every month,
they would change, not only the
hours that they were working,
but maybe their days off.
So you didn't know for sure
for the entire year what
your whole schedule
was going to be,
and Minneapolis still does
this to this day where
you pick your days off.
All right, so let's talk
about field training.
How did that go?
What were the
challenges with rotating
shifts right away while
everybody was getting
used to working
with Minneapolis?
- Rotating shifts
are a challenge,
no matter where you
work, and the thing
is the way the rotation does,
it's really hard on your body.
And as you know, that usually
middle watch was the worst
because day watch, the
kids were in school;
middle watch was 2:00 to 10:00.
So your kids weren't
home from school yet.
By the time you got home,
they were already in bed,
and it went that way.
And then working dog watch,
which was 10:00 at night
until 6:00 in the
morning was good
because you'd work the night and
then you could sleep the day.
But like I said, and then
having to do it every month,
I know that Minneapolis no
longer does that rotation.
You get to pick your
days off, but you also
bid a shift for a
year so that you
know that the shift that
you're going to be on
is what you're going to be
working for the full year.
It's not that, oh, yeah, this
month you're working this,
and this month you're
working that type of thing.
Like I said, it's one
of those things is,
it's something you want to
do, you're going to do it,
and it works out because
you want to do it,
and I did want to
be a police officer.
I thoroughly enjoyed my job.
I would not do anything
else, but like I
tell lots of people
that go, well, I
want to be a law enforcement
officer, you really
need to think about it, because
not everybody is cut out to be
a law enforcement officer.
- Right.
So you worked
patrol for how long?
- I worked patrol for six years.
- And they were all in
the fourth precinct.
- And they were all in the north
side in the fourth precinct.
When I first
started, the precinct
was up on West Broadway.
The locker room had room for
four females, I think it was,
and we had, I think,
over the shifts,
I think there was probably
a total of maybe 12 females
assigned at that point in time.
So like I said, it was one of
those things if you're going
and OK, well, our lockers--
the locker room, like I said,
we had lockers for everybody,
but there wasn't a whole
lot of room for people.
Where the guys locker
room, oh, yeah, hey,
we got all this room, and we
got all these lockers and all
that other kind of stuff.
Because that was in '86.
When they moved to the new
precinct, which was '88,
'89 maybe, I don't really
remember, but like I said,
there we had really
nice facilities,
we had a place we
could shower, we
had plenty of lockers
and a locker room
that wasn't quite
as big as the guys,
but it was big enough in regards
to future additions of females
for the locker room.
- So what did you like
about working patrol?
- Actually, I liked
working patrol because,
well, no matter
what you're doing,
every day was
something different.
Let's see.
I had made some
really good friends.
I didn't really have--
I worked with, because
Minneapolis always
had two-person squads, they
never had one-person squads.
So basically, on the shift,
you ended up getting--
sometimes you were partnered
with the same person a lot,
other times you sort
of got moved around
from this one to
this one to this one,
and everything being
a female, I ended up
getting moved around
a lot and getting
put with the males that the
other guys didn't want to work
with and that type of thing.
One instance was that the mail
that I got put with the most
had a body odor,
and like you said,
being in a squad car with
them on a regular basis
and everything like that,
it's one of those things
that you're going,
oh, how can I do this?
You hate to complain
about things,
and you're sort
of going, well, I
can go along with
this and everything.
I've always been one that
had a squad car window
open all the time, anyway
so that didn't bother.
Well, it bothered, but it
helped that you could keep
the window down and everything.
But when some of the other
officers that I worked with
started saying,
well, we don't want
to work with him because, oh,
my god, the smell and everything
like that, I went, you know,
if everybody is complaining,
why hasn't somebody said
something to the supervisor
to say something to
this person of maybe
you need to do a little bit
better hygiene and everything?
Well, since I ended up
working with him the most,
I went to the sergeant
and I said, could you just
talk to him and
say, it'd be nice
if you'd take better hygiene.
Well, once he got
talked to, well then
he told everybody that it
was my fault that he got
in trouble, even though
everybody else was going,
oh, thank god she
said something,
because now we can
actually ride in the car
with him, because he listened
to it and everything like that.
But like I said, I ended
up being the bad guy
because I was the one
who actually complained,
and they said, well, it was
because she was a female
that she complained, even though
all the guys were complaining,
but they wouldn't go
to the supervisor.
- Right.
Yeah.
Well, that's actually
pretty common,
where the one person
that says something,
especially if they're
a female versus a male.
- Yes, definitely.
- So you worked patrol, and then
you took the Sergeant's test.
Why did you take
the Sergeant's test,
and what did you hope
to do being a Sergeant?
- Like I said, being
a little bit older
and that type of
thing, the Sergeant,
after being a police officer,
the Sergeant is the next rank.
Taking the Sergeant's
test was one
of those things of
moving up in rank,
where you do different jobs.
You could either become
a street supervisor,
you could become an
investigator in Minneapolis.
You had to be a Sergeant
to be an investigator,
and it was just the natural
order of things in regards
to it.
Usually most people who do--
at that point in time, you had
to have at least five years
on as a police officer before
you could take the Sergeant's
test and everything.
So like I said, it was just
a natural sequence in regards
to the job.
- So when you first got
promoted to sergeant,
you ended up being
an investigator.
What did you investigate?
What did you like
being an investigator?
- I was promoted to sergeant,
and I became a sex crimes
investigator.
I did four years in sex crimes.
- As an investigator.
It always sounds weird when
you say that to somebody
from the outside, but she was
an investigator in sex crimes
for four years, yes.
- Yeah, I was an investigator
in sex crimes for four years.
During that four years,
we had a serial rapist
that I was on the task force
that we ended up catching him,
and then one of the cases that
I had that I was the primary on
and everything was a guy
who was breaking into houses
in the middle of the night
and always had a mask on,
always wore dark
clothes and everything,
but he would talk
when he was sexually
assaulting the females inside
their houses and everything.
We actually got a conviction
on him, and a lot of it
was because the females
could recognize his voice.
So like I said, it was one
of those tricky investigative
cases of trying to
go, OK, how are you
actually going to do this?
Thankfully, we had DNA, so
that helped in regards to it.
But like I said,
if they wouldn't
have been able to recognize
his voices, even with the DNA,
we probably would
have had a hard time
because DNA was just coming
into play at that point in time.
The DNA was not
really trusted to say,
yes, this was positively him,
where nowadays, oh, yeah, we
got their DNA.
You're definitely the
person who did this
because this is your DNA.
So like I said, that
was the other one.
And then one of the other
ones that I actually
did that I was primary
on and everything.
And I don't brag about this,
but when you have a bad cop,
something needs to be
done, and I ended up
getting a police officer
convicted because he
had sexually assaulted a female
that he had stopped for drunken
driving, and he
sexually assaulted her
in the back seat
of the police car.
- And you're right,
when you have
a cop that's doing bad things,
you have to do the right thing
and stop them, and
I agree with that.
- But like you said, once
again, this goes back to, well,
she's just picking on him
because she's a female
and everything like that.
But like I said, he was--
- He was convicted of that one.
- He was convicted
of it and everything,
because he did
some stupid things.
And we had really good
evidence because he
was stupid in the
way he did things.
But like I said, he may
very well have gotten by.
He may very well have
gotten by with doing it
if the female hadn't been so
adamant and upset that he did
this to her and with him being
where we were able to collect
the evidence to show
that he actually
did this was very important.
- Yes.
So after sex crimes, where
did you go after that?
- After sex crimes, I went to--
oh, what was it called?
Can you help me out?
- You have to tell
me what you did,
and I can tell you
what it's called.
I can't remember.
- Oh, where I did the gambling.
- Oh, you did the vice.
No, it was the--
- Gambling enforcement.
- Gambling enforcement
and permits,
and yeah, I don't remember
what it's called anymore,
but yeah, so the gambling
enforcement and the permits
to carry, permits to purchase,
that whole area there.
- Yes, and everything.
And like I said,
that one, it was OK.
It was one of those things
that you're going, all right,
it's something different
and that type of thing.
But like I said, I didn't think
that I did anything outstanding
there, but then I got promoted.
I took the Lieutenant's
test, and I
got promoted to lieutenant.
- But before you got
promoted to lieutenant,
didn't you get to go to the
Southern Police Institute,
or was it after you
were lieutenant?
- Oh, yeah.
No, you're right.
Yeah, you're right, actually.
- So can you talk about
that process a little bit,
about the Southern Police
Institute versus the FBI
Academy?
Because they're both, on
par, the same kind of thing.
- OK.
The Southern Police Institute
in Louisville, Kentucky.
Usually what the
department does is
they will ask people if
they would like to attend.
It's an administrative course
for three months, four months,
maybe, at Louisville,
Kentucky, and you
get college credits for
going and that type of thing.
They have a selective
process of where
they'll take what you have done
in the department, what you're
currently doing, where you would
like to go on the department,
and then the department
decides, OK, this
is the person who gets to go.
I got picked to go in
1995, and like I said,
I went down to
Louisville in August
and came back
versus the last part
of November and everything.
It's the SPI, which is the
Southern Police Institute,
is more of an academic
type study versus the FBI,
which is more physical.
- Yeah, the FBI Leadership
Institute, the Northwestern
Police Leadership Institute, and
the Southern Police Institute
are very equal, except that SPI
does focus a little bit more
on academics, FBI
is more physical,
and then Northwestern
kind of blends the two,
but they are equal credentials
for leadership, absolutely.
- Yes, they are.
So like I said, SPI
was a great experience.
You meet people from
all over the country,
and it gives you more
of a perspective of how
to be administration, more
so than being an investigator
or on patrol or
those type of things.
- And it sets you up very
well, because then you
were promoted to lieutenant.
Talk about being a lieutenant.
Is it what you expected--
oh, I know.
Is it what you
expected, or was it
different than
what you expected?
- Being promoted
to lieutenant is,
like I said, one more thing
in getting more money,
getting higher in rank
in the department.
Because like I said, every
promotion you get, you get
paid more for what you do.
Depending on what
lieutenant you are
depends on how much
workload you are.
If you're a
lieutenant on patrol,
it means you have
sergeants under you,
as well as officers
under you that
being a lieutenant on
patrol, your sergeants
do a fair amount of the work.
If you're a lieutenant
in investigations,
you're responsible for all
of these sergeants that
are working for you,
and for the cases
that they're putting
together, that it's
a different set in regards to
how you work as a lieutenant.
Then if you become a lieutenant
in administrative positions,
then you're really
not a supervisor
like an investigative lieutenant
is or a patrol lieutenant is,
but you're responsible for
the administrative parts
of the department.
- And you spent quite a bit
of time in administrative,
but you also were a
watch commander at times,
and then you were the
lieutenant in charge of K-9.
What was your favorite
role as a lieutenant?
- You know, I can't really
pick one that was favorite
because I liked all of them
that I did, and becoming--
actually, I was a
lieutenant of patrol
before I became a
lieutenant of K9.
- That's true.
- Because I was at the downtown
command and everything.
So like I said, part of
the patrol lieutenant
was not my favorite because,
unfortunately, happened
to do with discipline of
officers and those type
of things become very--
I don't know.
I can't tell you the right word.
- It comes draining,
and it becomes hard.
It does become hard
on a person, yes
- And one of the reasons that
when I was lieutenant of patrol
at the downtown command was that
there was a sexual harassment
suit that I became involved
in that had started
in the third precinct, and
then one of the females
who was involved in that
sexual harassment suit
got transferred to
the Downtown command.
So basically, from
there, I ended up
having to deal with
that person who did not
want to be at work because
of sexual harassment
that had occurred in
a different precinct.
Even though it wasn't
occurring where
she was currently
assigned and everything
like that, she had
taken it and went,
I don't want to be there at all.
So like I said, it's one of
those things that it becomes
sticky in regards to
how it could be handled
and that type of thing.
But you have to handle
it the best you can
and going from there.
- And we've often talked,
not just myself and you,
but myself and colleagues,
how a police department
is like a high school.
There's cliques.
There's gossip.
There's rumors that go around.
And even in a
department the size
of Minneapolis, rumors
spread and stories
spread, and it's not always
accurate information, which
can impact anybody working.
- Yes, very true.
- Well, like you
just talked about,
we've heard that very
first kind of wave of women
ended up having to
sue departments a lot
and that there was
a lot of harassment.
Can you talk about
your experience?
Did you experience that?
Were you part of
anything or the people
in your classes about suing
for harassment, or what
was your experience
in that realm?
- OK, my experience is, no,
I didn't know anybody that--
well, I did know people who
sued for sexual harassment.
I have to take that back.
But I was a supervisor of
that person and everything,
but the people in my class
and the people in the classes
before me, as far
as I know, there
wasn't anybody in those
classes that actually
sued for sexual harassment.
The next wave, the ones
that were hired in late '87,
'88, '89, are where the sexual
harassment suits actually
started in Minneapolis.
But like I said, I
know of them, but it
wasn't that I was truly
that associated with them,
and it wasn't until I
was a lieutenant in '96
that I actually ended
up having to deal
with a sexual harassment suit.
- So as we're coming
to a close here,
I'm going to ask one
last thing, and now, this
is kind of shifting personal.
So your daughter, me, I
joined the Minneapolis Police
Department in 1997, and we
were the first mother-daughter
to work for the
same law enforcement
agency in the upper Midwest
that we know of for sure.
We don't anywhere
else outside of that.
What did you think of me
becoming a peace officer
and then working
for the same agency?
Did you have any reservations?
- Actually, I was
very proud when
you decided that you wanted
to become a law enforcement
officer, that you wanted to work
for Minneapolis was absolutely
one of those things that I'm
going, I can't believe it,
but it's OK.
And we were the first
mother-daughter police officers
in Minnesota.
The guys always talk of, well,
I'm a third-generation police
officer, and in Minneapolis,
there was plenty of them that
were second, third,
fourth-generation police
officers, but we
were the only ones
that were mother and daughter
in Minnesota at that time.
- And I never directly
worked for you,
and we never wanted it that way.
I did help with
the MDC training,
so we ended up on
a couple of scenes
together because you
were the watch commander
and I was a responding officer.
But other than that,
we didn't really
interact professionally
that way, which
was a good thing, in many ways.
But I was always very
proud you were my mom,
and I'm very happy with that.
So when you decided
to retire, what
did you miss most about the
police force after you retired?
- Being in law
enforcement, no matter
what size your department
is, they're still all family.
And you make some very good
friends and that type of thing,
so it's the missing the
camaraderie, basically,
of everybody that
you worked with.
Because like I said,
there's good, there's bad.
You get along with some.
It's just like
having a family, some
get along with, some
don't get along with.
But it's still the feeling
of that if something happens,
you know they're going
to be there for you
and that you have some
stability in regards to it.
Retiring takes a lot.
For anybody who's thinking
about retiring out there,
it takes a lot to get your
mind where you can go,
oh, I don't have to
go to work today,
and I don't have to worry.
On the news, I don't have
to worry about what the news
media is doing, and
what's happening
there and that type of thing.
Worrying about something
happen to some of your friends
and that type of thing,
that never leaves you,
but it takes a lot to get
your mind set differently
from law enforcement
of being able to say,
I'm retired, and when
people go, oh, well,
you were a police officer.
That must have been a
very interesting life,
and what did you do and all
that other kind of stuff.
As most law
enforcement people will
tell you is they don't
really talk about their job,
because most people think,
oh, it would be interesting.
But once you start telling
them, they're going, oh, my god.
So like I said, it's some
of those kind of things
that you have to get yourself
in a different mindset
when you retire.
- So we're going to
close this podcast.
I'm going to ask you
to give some advice.
So I can give a lot of
my female students advice
on what it's like to be
a female police officer,
but the biggest concern
I hear from them
is, hi, I can't be a mother
and a police officer,
or it's not fair to the kids.
So if I had a student
sitting in front of me who
was concerned about
that, what advice
would you give them about being
a peace officer and a mother?
- Being a mother is hard,
no matter what profession
you're in.
If you like the
profession you're in,
it's going to show your
children how life is
and what they can also do.
I'm a firm believer
that being with your--
you have to let your kids
live their lives as well.
You can't be there
all the time for them.
They have to be
trusted, and let go,
and yes, it is hard being a
mom, and you see your kids
and that type of thing.
If they grew up with you being
a law enforcement officer,
they're just going to
be, oh, well, they're
a cop, that's what
they do, and it's not
a big deal in regards to that.
I know that your sister,
Penny, always had a fear of Mom
not coming home, especially
since I was a single mom
and that type of thing.
But it's one of those
things is, if something--
I could have been a
cook at the school
and got hit by a car walking
home from the school.
And it's the same thing of if
something happened at work,
it's still going to affect you
no matter what your job is.
- Yeah, exactly.
Well, thank you for
talking with me,
and for everybody that
gets to listen to this,
I know we could talk for
hours and hours on this,
and we didn't even get a
chance to share stories,
including a basketball
game and glasses,
but maybe that's
for a future one.
But thank you so much.
I am very proud of you and
your career and the great mom
that you were, and I
appreciate you taking your time
to talk with me.
- And I appreciate
you doing this,
but you have to understand
I am so proud of you
for what you have done with
your 17 years with Minneapolis
and now, number 11 as a teacher
of all of those people going
into law enforcement
and how well you do it
and how well your
students respond to you.
- Oh, thank you.
Thank you for listening to
this episode of Let's Talk CJ
podcast.
If you have suggestions
for future episode topics,
interviews, or other
areas to cover,
please email us at
criminaljustice@mnsu.edu,
or visit our website.
Join us next time
for a new episode,
and thank you for listening.
