Let’s Talk CJ

15:38:40 gone in and started the record here.
15:38:44 Hello.
15:38:46 There we go.
15:38:49 Welcome to Episode 23 of the let's talk government podcast. Today we're going to talk about satire and politics. I am joined by one of my favorites, Dr Amelia pridemore from the political science program at Minnesota State University manKato.
15:39:04 We've had some very interesting discussions on outlaw citizenship and storming the capitals so thank you for joining me today. So I guess the obvious place to start is what is satire.
15:39:15 Well, the way that Dr. Dan a young, who is the author of a fabulous book that myself and my students love irony and outrage about the power of satirical programming as well as what's called outrage programming, a lot of what you see on conservative talk
15:39:33 radio. So she defined satire as playful conversation. It's intended, of course to elicit laughter. But as I tell students when I teach them about satire, something can be hilariously funny, but that doesn't make it satirical.
15:39:55 So what makes it satirical now. So, one thing that it does is it articulates a political or social judgment, and it often does so in somewhat of an antagonistic or aggressive type of fashion.
15:40:11 It also advances critiques in society and institutions, and when we do this, it forces us the audience to examine if we possibly ourselves are complicit according to Dr.
15:40:26 young.
15:40:29 Now, targets a satire.
15:40:32 It might be prominent political figures, you know, the president.
15:40:38 It might be institutions things that that you know we do that we don't really think about but they're naturally a part of our everyday lives.
15:40:49 Like for example, religion, john oliver did a large piece on the impact of televangelists, and how some of them use faith for financial gain.
15:41:03 So you know Institute if you're talking about institutions religion is one of them. And there's some people who use it in often not so great ways practices just things we do that maybe we don't even think about so much.
15:41:18 And then, it could be social or cultural convention such as gender roles. Right. Um, but these conventions have political implications.
15:41:31 Or perhaps the people who are the target of it is us.
15:41:37 We, there's a danger in satire, when you're watching it sometimes as I tell people all the time. It could turn out at the end of a program that you're sitting there feeling really guilty about what you did last year, last week five minutes before there's
15:41:57 there's a danger to self. When, when listening to stop here because who knows it may be when you're listening to spiritual program.
15:42:06 And that judgment has passed it may be on you.
15:42:10 It may be on you or just all of us as a society. And that's one of the the key points about it.
15:42:17 The other thing is is that satire is a process that judgment I mentioned to you that's that's the point of a big process that satire is. So it's not. So again, not only is it a deliberate way of telling jokes but there's also a deliberate process and
15:42:33 that young identifies.
15:42:36 So again, it starts out with a little bit of aggression, there's a little bit of.
15:42:42 There's a little bit of a punch to it, but it's sort of like a play fighting type of aggression.
15:42:49 So for example, john oliver will often start off his programming, saying something to the effect of Hi, welcome to our blank Floyd, since he's been having to record in a socially distance form, you know, kind of like, Ah, this is terrible, but it's it's
15:43:10 but he's he's kind of making a joke with it so he's, it's not you know your dad screaming at the TV right.
15:43:19 It says there's a little bit of snark to it. And then there's a lot of play that that young identifies now what I call the play part is really critical in terms of winning the audience's hearts and minds.
15:43:35 And I call this the clown setup. And what I mean by the clown setup is that the host of a satire program will basically say, either literally or in some other form or fashion.
15:43:49 Don't take me seriously. I'm just a comedian, I'm just a clown. I'm an idiot.
15:43:57 Like for example, one thing that people would say to Jon Stewart, in the early days of The Daily Show was, you know, can you believe how much of an impact that your program has had and Jon Stewart would typically reply with my show comes on, after, after
15:44:16 a program that involves puppets making prank calls.
15:44:24 You know, you know, john oliver put a picture of himself in an awkward teenage is awkward teenage years on the Billboard of his show for the first for the, for the previous season.
15:44:39 You know, they've, they'll, they'll, they'll do this all the time.
15:44:44 JOHN another one with Oliver was that before one of his season started at the, at the on the preview real, they said, and the critics are raving and it was basically all of these horrible things that Donald Trump jack Warner from FIFA, some other authoritarian
15:45:02 leaders
15:45:05 had to say that was really terrible about a show, you know as a promo promo. It's like the critics are raving this show is terrible, but it but he made sure you know that the people who were who were saying this were some that a lot of people don't like.
15:45:25 But, what they do is they make sure to kind of, you know, take themselves down a notch Hey, don't take me so seriously. And so what happens is where they're don't, would they don't put themselves on a pedestal and in fact, try to sell a set themselves
15:45:40 as, as the goofball. A lot of times what happens is, and this is something that happens with us when it comes to entertainment presentation, or when in for information as is presented to us as simple as entertainment.
15:45:56 Well, what happens with audiences, is if something is presented as straight up political information.
15:46:06 People put up their guard to put up your Dukes, because that's going to challenge their pre existing beliefs, oh no you don't don't come at me with that.
15:46:17 Right. But if you have somebody who's saying, hey, look at me. I've got a really dumb show that's followed by some puppets later on, you know, hey, I look at look at my offer Middle School picture.
15:46:35 You know, it's like, oh, isn't this fun, the garbage down. Right. And that's a very deliberate process and.
15:46:45 And what it does is when you, when you have people put on their put down their guards Naturally Speaking.
15:46:52 The information flows to them a lot easier.
15:46:58 It's a little more it's a little more, it's a little easier to digest, when you, when you swallow your food with a with a glass of satire, with a glass of entertainment per se, right.
15:47:13 So the clown setup is key because that's what's going to disarm the audience Hey guys, we're just here to have fun and be stupid, isn't that nice, but we see that imprint satire to don't wait the cloud so yeah i mean if you look at bloom county opens
15:47:29 was a penguin who was the center of all this political commentary and build a cat and, and even Doonesbury it's on the comic page, how could it be political or editorial cartoons are drawn cartoonish so you have that Chrome setup so that makes a lot of
15:47:44 sense Amelia does. Oh yeah, and if you talk about editorial cartoons and.
15:47:50 And likewise, some satirical print programming like the onion. A lot of times to that really builds on what what I'll often what some people have often called the kernel of truth.
15:48:01 So for example just you know like for example editorial cartoons.
15:48:08 Sometimes they would make Barack Obama's ears, especially large, and you know, he was known for having kind of larger ears but they would make his yeah basically be like much larger than his head.
15:48:23 You know, or were george w bush they'd have him on like these, you know, cowboy boots or whatever to kind of represent this ideal of you know him being this loud brash Texan or whatever but the thing is is it's kind of like the way a lot of these tend
15:48:43 to operate especially when you have a print based satirical publication, they start out with something that is so believable, that it's real, almost. In fact, some of these same people who, who have been the target of satirical programming like for example,
15:49:03 jack Warner a FIFA fame or infamy if whatever even if I want to say who has had work words with john were a war of words with john oliver. Okay, well, there was an onion story about FIFA, the came out and jack water was was on TV, you know, how dare you
15:49:25 say these horrible things about me and it was a story in the onion.
15:49:32 But the thing is, is I've seen, I've personally seen people who don't know what the onion is believe it, because, because it just seems like there's this this air of truth to something that's absurd.
15:49:47 And the thing is is when you're when you're looking at something that's absurd. And you kind of see the connection between the real and the absurd. Sometimes what I will say is, is if you're if you're laughing because it's real.
15:50:04 Maybe you should think about why you're laughing.
15:50:08 That's a good point right why, why are you laughing. And is this a laughing matter.
15:50:16 Oh yeah, that stupid thing that that one politician does all the time oh yeah man, I see that all the time.
15:50:23 Why are we seeing that all the time. Is it okay that we're seeing this all the time.
15:50:29 For example, one of my favorite onion articles that I've, I've sometimes used is.
15:50:35 It was for a few years ago and it was an article that was, It was something called something to the effect of taxpayers demand that their money only be wasted on things that are awesome.
15:50:52 Basically, so they were the people who were the fake people who were fake interview for the story were saying things like, hey, instead of building a bridge to nowhere How about you build us space lasers and, you know, let's let's let's let's let's make
15:51:12 a huge sausage that goes all the way from Miami to New York will eat it of course and one of my favorite bits of it was sports stadiums.
15:51:26 Taxpayers didn't mind, according to this onion article of course it's like taxpayers didn't mind public financing of of new sports stadiums as long as the old stadiums, could be exploded, while everybody gets to watch and what a while, AC DC highway to
15:51:44 Hell is playing in the background.
15:51:47 And so in other words, yes if you're going to waste our money on things like sports stadiums.
15:51:55 Well at least make do something cool for us, or if you're going to waste our body waste on things that are cool. Now think about it.
15:52:04 You know, one thing that has come up a lot when we talk about public financing and that's been criticized has been the public financing of sports stadiums.
15:52:14 You know why are we publicly financing. You know the NFL. Right, right, right. So, what why are we doing this.
15:52:26 So, and for that matter, why are we spending money on this Why are we spending money on that.
15:52:33 When we talk about how government does or does not spend our money.
15:52:40 You know, we were laughing at for example the sports stadiums bit.
15:52:46 But why are we laughing. Right, right, is there is there something to be said about why we're laughing at this, and not just the sport status but idiots Why are we laughing, and that and that and that causes us often to ask some, some really important
15:53:03 questions if this is so absurd.
15:53:05 Should we do. Should we do something about something that is so absurd. Right. Yeah.
15:53:15 Well, I kind of interrupted your discussion that process we were at clowns there so look after that here.
15:53:19 Okay, so basically. So throughout the throughout the programming, oftentimes again you know there's there's, there's a little bit of aggression.
15:53:29 A little bit of play but again you know there's there's that there's this kind of clowning around aspect to it. So for example, one thing that's often done by, by, pretty well all of the prominent satire is out there, john oliver Samantha Bee.
15:53:48 Trevor Noah on The Daily Show does this fairly often they'll, you know, throw out some kind of outrageous graphics in the middle of their face.
15:53:59 Just if nothing else to just to keep you laughing and keep the, keep the kind of the show going.
15:54:07 For example, john Oliver's quest for, for some rather suggestive rat art.
15:54:18 That happened this past year.
15:54:19 It was utilized and some of his sketches after he failed it.
15:54:23 So, yeah, but you're decided, you're, you're, you're informing the audience but you're disarming them at the same time and making them were receptive, because this is fun.
15:54:35 Wow. But you're still drawing them in, and it goes a little further and further until it reaches what I call the judgment, and the judgment kind of like what I mentioned before, according to what Danny young has had to say.
15:54:49 The judgment could be, you know, a political figure, a political party.
15:54:56 They could be a institution possibly one that we hold dear, like for example freedom of religion well yeah some people find ways to create loopholes around that to have a $6 million dollar parks and agenda $60 million cap.
15:55:14 Right. Um, but sometimes it's us, and one one big example that I use in terms of we ourselves are to blame. When it comes to satire is john Oliver's piece on warehouses and he, mainly focused on Amazon.
15:55:30 During this bet. One of the things that he made sure to to was, you know, he said Hey guys, how many of you are.
15:55:40 How many of you are buying prime this week.
15:55:43 How many of you, you had to have your horse head mask in one day. Right.
15:55:53 And then they, and then he goes on to show these Amazon workers, some of them who are 80 years old, but some of them who were very young people who were physically giving out some of them were had no bathroom breaks and having to wet themselves on the
15:56:08 job.
15:56:11 You know, they, and he followed it at the end with this little like parody of Amazon's commercial about how happy their workers are and it was, it was something like, Hey, Jim.
15:56:24 Aren't you a happy person to be working here at Amazon. I am going to have to wet myself now can you please turn the camera off.
15:56:32 Right. But the thing is is when you think about how many times you or I or anybody else has ordered prime just in the past day.
15:56:41 And then when you watch something like that where you're having to see a 77 year old man have to walk the equivalent of a football field to get your Oreo cookies.
15:56:53 And, you know, people having to wet their pants, at work, you know, all of a sudden that horse head mask isn't so fashionable after all is it rain, and that's that's something, but the thing is is, you know, there's a bit of discomfort about that is you're,
15:57:13 you know, all of a sudden those Oreos aren't as tasty. When you see what where they came from, or how what it took to get them to you.
15:57:23 But in a way, this is a very necessary process that has to happen. If we don't, if we ourselves are doing something that's detrimental to our society and to our democracy, or just to each other.
15:57:43 Maybe we need to be called out ourselves, and sometimes satire cheese that.
15:57:48 So I think it's important to note that satire is not always about politics many times it is about the conditions that humans are or something that's going on society.
15:57:58 I'm just thinking about some of the parodies I saw but wearing masks over the last year, you know, it was, it was some satire to also put some social pressure on people to realize that they should be wearing masks and wearing them properly.
15:58:11 So is there any way, what was that the full process I don't want to stop the process I know it was the general outline of it yeah the big key is the judgment.
15:58:20 Alright, so is there. I mean, so why doesn't satire just get out of control and keep going and going and going. Is there any way to just like say wait timeout let's let's think about this.
15:58:30 Well actually, that's a that's a great point because there's there's a bit of satire that one of my mentors from Marshall University, Dr. Jamie Warner has talked about and that's called political culture jamming, and basically how I how I describe it
15:58:46 anyway is that satire wrists, it's not putting the brakes on themselves satire is put the brakes on often ludicrous, sometimes even dangerous.
15:59:06 Political information that we're either getting from our political leaders, or another political figures, or from the mass media. So actually satire isn't so much that it's out of control satire is actually the emergency brake.
15:59:18 When you take when you take in the to account the concept of political culture jamming. So, Dr Warner in a very awesome 2007 article that she wrote about.
15:59:31 The Daily Show and political culture jamming so culture jamming itself has been around for quite some time.
15:59:39 mainly it was used as a critique against capitalistic culture and but it was kind of done in a very aggressive style. What political culture jamming does it's a little different, and namely, in that it uses a lot of the same mess it like white culture
15:59:59 jamming when, when it was done in advertising. It uses a lot of the same messaging techniques.
16:00:07 Just like the, just like is done on the news. Okay, it's like it's done in politics.
16:00:16 The difference between regular culture jamming and the political culture jamming that Dr Warner lays out is that there's a humor and parody involved that makes it seem innocuous again.
16:00:32 Oh, it's just it's just a fun show. It makes it innocuous and again, it allows them as Dr. Walter puts puts it, you know satire is like jon stewart can operate stealthily, and they can, they can basically get the job done in kind of a little the skies
16:00:53 way again, said, setting themselves up like the clown. Right, so don't take Don't take me seriously even though they are making an impact, it's sort of.
16:01:03 It's sort of.
16:01:06 Basically, they don't come out as putting themselves up on a pedestal.
16:01:12 So really it's like, oh, it's just, it's just a conversation with this cool friend of mine versus say the exalted one that on a pedestal. Right. And so there's, there's a greater approachability to it.
16:01:29 Now with culture jamming what basically this means is that is that satirical comedians will. According to Dr Warner said will use dissident interpretations of political messaging political events.
16:01:45 So it's coming from somebody who, you know, is, is, is advancing a critique. They don't want to pair it back, what they're seeing on the news or they're seeing in politics.
16:01:58 And what they do is the term jam they jam that political messaging, and oftentimes they use the same techniques that news and politics does particularly the news.
16:02:13 So for example, take these news parody shows like The Daily Show. The old coal bear report.
16:02:20 You know, the same, you know, desk, the American flag graphics, you know, you're talking about these pundit shows that Stephen Colbert air was was mimicking in the old Colbert Report, you know, Eagles flying around all over the place.
16:02:37 You know, graphics galore.
16:02:40 You know, basically they, and if you're talking about john oliver john oliver is known for well and he's not having to broadcast in his blank void that he's having to use now.
16:02:52 Yeah john oliver is known for at the end of every show, putting on some kind of crazy over the top spectacle with marching bands and people dressed up in bear costumes,
16:03:09 the foul mouth squirrel.
16:03:12 Well, I mean, and for that matter the lawsuit the lead to the fact that the foul mouth squirrel.
16:03:20 You know, sparked you know the the incident with the cold magnate Bob Murray, well right before everything was shut down for covert john oliver did a did a basically he did a satirical take on.
16:03:34 Bob Murray, and people using litigation to silence Dissident Voices so a greater aspect, not just what happened to john oliver.
16:03:44 They did a whole bit involving a time square dance number with fireworks costumes dancers.
16:03:54 Yeah, so, a lot of these spectacles oftentimes that are well over the top. Well, the things that are often used on say on a cable news network, same stuff, all the graphics flying at you, you know, lots of American flags, all over the place because you
16:04:15 know we're patriots Right. Right. Well satire is are using the same thing. And what that does is that newscast parody or that parody of something that we see in the political sphere.
16:04:29 It gives them the sort of air of legitimacy, this era of respectability according to Warner in the music and graphics. One thing that I found that was really funny when I talked about this with students is one of my students remarked in class once that
16:04:45 when watching cable news he felt like it was.
16:04:50 He felt like everything was breaking news, everything was just breaking news breaking news all the time breaking news and. And I said, so to kind of spark some further discussion with the students.
16:05:03 I said, Okay, well when you see breaking news, what happens what what do you see and they're like, oh yeah the graphics the music and somebody yelled out from the back.
16:05:11 It's like cold air.
16:05:15 And I remember thinking to myself, you know, cold bear vocal bear report was designed to parody the news and now they're designed to be like the news.
16:05:30 And now the students are telling me especially the younger generations they're telling me the news looks like cold air.
16:05:36 Right.
16:05:40 Well, and like, I'm so I'm going to date myself a little bit but like the weekend report from Saturday Night Live was always so hilarious because it was just like watching news that was made up, you know, so when you kind of equate that I never thought
16:05:52 of it as satire I just thought it was just entertainment but really, it kind of crosses lines there doesn't it. Yeah, Weekend Update didn't go as far probably as the Daily Show and and some of the spin offs that have come, come, before, namely because
16:06:08 a lot of there, a lot of their takes weren't as aggressive, but still yet when you've got.
16:06:15 For example, Tina Fey's remarks about when when she and Amy Poehler became a two woman hosting force on on Weekend Update you know some of her remarks that were to the effect of, perhaps some women aren't exactly.
16:06:34 Nice, huh. Um, but perhaps some of the same women who aren't exactly nice get things done and perhaps that should be more fashionable. You put everything very politely
16:06:50 politely, um, that that made some waves, and that that did make some people think, you know, because a lot of times when we talk about women in politics they talk more about that likeability, do we like her.
16:07:03 Do we like her.
16:07:05 I mean how many people asked that about Donald Trump right, we're worried about how they dress or what their hair looks like you know that type of thing is yes, I agree.
16:07:14 When you, especially when you talk about that likeability factor you know one of the if you think about it, but that Tina at what Tina Fey was having to say was, was very accurate in terms of critiquing the whole.
16:07:29 Did we like her, Well, maybe if we maybe she can get things done.
16:07:34 And maybe it shouldn't matter as to whether or not we like her, or if we like her.
16:07:41 Does it still mean. Likewise.
16:07:44 Is it is it is it good to have somebody we like, who isn't going to get anything done right.
16:07:51 But yeah, she called up that whole likeability thing that a lot of that a lot of, a lot of our.
16:07:58 A lot of our.
16:08:06 A lot of what's been said in the blogosphere namely about female candidates.
16:08:04 But that's one of the things that culture jamming does is essentially it calls out.
16:08:11 I always say that when it comes to the messaging the messaging the often, especially in the era of 24 hour news and social media, man. What it is is it just feels like it's like a wrecking train, which some media scholars pointed out, oh this is going
16:08:24 to be really bad. When as technology evolves well the thing about culture jamming is, is it puts the brakes on what seems to be this never ending cycle.
16:08:41 And it says, Wait a minute, what's going on here. Why, for example, why are we caring about this when it comes to our female candidates.
16:08:50 Wait a minute.
16:08:52 What are we letting people use this tax exempt status for religious organizations for exactly. Wait a minute. What is going on here. Time out.
16:09:08 And I think that's one aspect that culture jamming aspect I think is a major benefit to not only us being informed citizens, but our actually having a healthier democracy, especially in the age of, of greater technology and things just flying at us at
16:09:32 the speed of light, you know, feeling like the news is cold air right.
16:09:38 One. One. Media scholar and he wrote this book in 1985, but a lot of, I still assign it to this day and a lot of my students find this to be prophecy.
16:09:51 Neil postman's amusing ourselves to death.
16:09:56 Basically, there's, there's a lot to unpack with with postman's arguments but basically what he has said that what as technology has advanced.
16:10:09 Not only do we have information moving faster but the thing is is with that with that information moving faster.
16:10:16 We lose a lot of context that we need, where we've just got to have things right now and it's, we've got to do it in 30 seconds and boom right off the bat.
16:10:27 We don't deliberate and and ponder and question, and follow up on, on, on information that's being thrown out there, we're not interrogating this enough, whether it be our press actually doing the entire game for us or for that matter, as we ride along
16:10:50 this kind of speeding locomotive ourselves as citizens.
16:10:55 We ourselves don't get enough time to ponder things and the thing is is if you're talking about, you know, whether or not we should spend our money on sports stadiums.
16:11:10 You know how we how we treat our Amazon workers who we should have as our next president, how we should handle a pandemic right. Yeah, you know, we've, we've got to be able to think about that longer than 30 seconds.
16:11:28 Right. And so what culture jamming that culture jamming process what I argue is, is the culture jamming process in terms of stopping that transmission and saying, Wait a minute, what's going on here.
16:11:45 What a lot of times what that does is it gives us the chance to regain that last context.
16:11:54 We get our context back once we're able to put the brakes on. And one way that we can effectively put on the brakes, is through political culture jamming that satire does.
16:12:08 Well it's interesting because it kind of plays into the you know the speed of information now. Maybe you look at some of the historically really satirical publications like the New Yorker the onion, you know, editorial cartoons Doonesbury bloom County,
16:12:22 they had to put work into and thought into it and then it would get published on the cycle, or even the TV shows, I mean, you didn't get to watch it every night, you know when it was coming on.
16:12:32 But now, anybody can just grab their phone start revealing themselves and putting it on Facebook. So, how does that speed of information impact satire in politics.
16:12:44 Well I think one thing is that you know you mentioned Facebook is now with with YouTube, Facebook, etc. There's infinite platforms to where you don't need HBO, or Comedy Central or TBS or whoever it may be to green light your show, you can basically you
16:13:06 can have your own satire programming of whatever kind of on your phone and some people have have really worked to have early work to do this for example, Trey Crowder, the liberal redneck.
16:13:23 He basically just started recording himself on Facebook and now. Now he's a sensation.
16:13:32 You, a lot of people just, you know, grab a phone and put themselves on YouTube or on Facebook Live.
16:13:38 So, technology has one big thing has been the, the platforms now for anybody who wants to get into the satire game is outright infinite. And the other thing that's really important about that too is as Samantha Bee can attest, when she got into some hot
16:13:57 water about some Ivanka Trump remarks.
16:14:01 A lot of times too when you have a.
16:14:06 When you have a. When you have to play to advertisers right network executives to basically be able to stay on the air. Well, you know, if.
16:14:19 Yeah, Facebook moderates content. Yeah, YouTube moderates context but you don't have to worry about so many puppeteers that could pull the plug on you and pull the plug on your platform.
16:14:36 If you're working off a social media now has this happened well just ask Alex Jones, not Assad tires but nonetheless of, he's, you know he had his platform pulled.
16:14:48 But it's, but yet you don't have to worry so much and therefore, you can be far less censored.
16:14:56 The problem is is oftentimes you have far less of a budget.
16:15:00 Right.
16:15:01 You don't get to have john Oliver's marching bands and Time Square shut downs and fireworks. In fact, if you did some of this with your, you know you as a private citizen with only armed with your cell phone you might get arrested for it.
16:15:19 You know, there's the possibility of defamation depending on how far you go so right which by the way that actually, that's a that's a good point that you brought up with defamation.
16:15:29 Actually satire, when you talk about the legal system satire, not only in terms of the First Amendment.
16:15:39 Not only is it helped by the First Amendment is actually set some major precedents for the First Amendment.
16:15:47 One that happened well before the john oliver Bob Murray case which was a defamation case.
16:15:55 One that happened before that was the infamous hustler magazine and Jerry Falwell case, I totally forgot about that yes you know the Jerry Falwell and falwell and Flint, which was the subject of the movie, the people vs Larry Flynt Yeah, I'm, you know,
16:16:12 this, the, the, the, this this was a parody ad.
16:16:26 That was running. That was running hustler magazine that was pretty raunchy about Jerry Falwell. It made it all the way to the United States Supreme Court and it was an eight zero ruling I believe only one person abstained even Antonin Scalia ruled in
16:16:35 favor of Larry Flynt.
16:16:39 In this case, and the and the standard that was set was that with with falwell and Flint, was that a reasonable, a reasonable person would be able to say, no, this is not true.
16:16:56 So, So for example when, when up.
16:17:02 So, so when accusations were in a parody ad, which means it wasn't really real accusations were leveled at Jerry Falwell about some of his sexual behavior, which was anybody can look at this and tell that it was just absolutely ridiculous.
16:17:24 Right, well that that was kind of the standard that was set up, basically, if anybody can look at this and just know that this is just absurd.
16:17:37 This is this is a joke that, then, then, yeah, you can you can say what you want also help that do somebody like falwell was a public figure right out there in the public eye, which was established largely by the New York Times or Sullivan.
16:17:58 You also had him setting himself up there is this moral entrepreneur per se, remember Moral Majority. Yeah. Yeah. So, but the thing but the key thing that came out of falwell and Flint, was that if nobody would ever believe that no, it's clear that this
16:18:14 is a joke.
16:18:17 You know, you're good to go. And that was one of the things that likely led to john oliver being freed of Bob Murray. Right, right, because, because some of the content involving Bob Murray, such as that, that involved the talking squirrel.
16:18:40 You know, you can look at that and and just tell that no this this is this is just a joke. So actually what happened with fall willing Flint and that set so piratical satirical bit.
16:18:57 Was it opened up the door for more content that was used as political humor, it was done to by pointing out the absurd question Gee, why are we thinking this is absurd.
16:19:13 kind of really opened the door to that. And the one that kind of kept it going was just here, you know, really kept that precedent going was john oliver and Bob Murray.
16:19:31 So, So democracy thanks you, Larry Flynt and talking squirrel.
16:19:38 This is a perfect segue to bring you back, bring into the closing so how does satire affected democracy. Are there good things and bad things I mean, why do we, why should we encourage that title and democracy.
16:19:51 Just as I mentioned before to, you know, you've got to be able to sometimes use the absurd to point out the absurd.
16:20:01 In other words, why are we laughing. The other thing is is to when you talk about democracy and you talk about a dissident voice, whether it's, whether it's a you know a protester on the sidewalk who has something really angry to say, or perhaps it's
16:20:19 someone doing a Time Square number with, with a squirrel.
16:20:24 The thing is, is, regardless of how this dissident voice. That's part of a healthy democracy is doing things still yet.
16:20:36 It's a dissident voice. It's a voice that challenges authority, which is necessary for a healthy democracy. And some people might say well why don't they just say mean things why do they have to do this number with, with the, with, you know, sexual humor
16:20:57 and was swearing and funky looking rats.
16:21:02 But so forth. Well the thing is, you know, in terms of bringing people into thinking about this dissident voice this alternative point of view, rather than something that's often parroted out there, you know, that draw the entertainment has.
16:21:25 That's going to bring more people into that message, maybe they're not going to accept the message, but they are going to be more likely to at least listen and think one of the things that we often find ourselves doing in our society today is we often
16:21:44 just automatically shut down. If somebody has a viewpoint, other than our own right. But when you kind of let get people to let their guard down with that nice little clown setup right let their guard down with the clown setup.
16:22:05 You know, even if you don't change hearts and minds. At least you can listen. At least we can maybe come to some kind of understanding with each with each other, with what with one another.
16:22:18 And and perhaps maybe it'll just have to take a foul mouse world to do it, but perhaps we could reach a greater understanding with one another, wonder, Well Dr Patty bar.