Scholars Serving Time Program
11:18:03 Welcome to Episode 32 of the let's talk government podcast scholars serving time program.
11:18:09 I'm joined by Dr Vickie Hunter from the Department of Sociology at Minnesota State University men Kato.
11:18:16 Welcome to the show Dr. Hunter and you are the program director would you like to just kind of give us a brief overview what scholars serving time is.
11:18:26 Sure. Thanks for thanks for asking me to to be part of this.
11:18:33 Yeah, so the scholars serving time program is is relatively new, just started in January of this year.
11:18:41 And it is a, an AA degree program that Ms human Kato offers in three different prisons in Minnesota and that's fair Bo Shakopee, and what Sega.
11:18:56 And basically it's, you know, I think when people think a degree they tend to think, you know, kind of, kind of general community college degree. And this is actually somewhat of a special a degree, meaning that we really put a lot of emphasis on making
11:19:13 sure that the courses that are offered are highly rigorous, and they are always face to face. So there are no online classes.
11:19:23 And there's.
11:19:25 We asked professors to really do their best to make the courses.
11:19:30 Very dialogue, heavy, so that there's because I have found that incarcerated students have a lot to say, and and the great thing is that they do the readings.
11:19:42 And that's not to say that students on campus don't but I think most of us that teach on campus know that sometimes they don't.
11:19:50 Whereas with the you know the incarcerated students they do tend to do the readings and so they come to class with lots to say lots of questions so.
11:20:00 So yes, I guess, you know, you could say we kind of use more of the structure, the way honors courses are taught, not in the sense that students that come into the program are required to have kind of higher, or advanced abilities prior to but just really
11:20:15 in the ways that the courses are taught with a high expectations lots of dialogue.
11:20:21 So that almost sounds like the dream classroom, a professor is someone that really engaging dialogue. So do you have professors from MSC make a go to the facilities to teach in person or do you use like adjunct professors.
11:20:35 Nope. We. Well, we actually have had an adjunct professor teach a class, but it was because she was deemed to be the best person in that department to teach the class and and i think generally speaking, you know full time faculty are the ones that tend
11:20:56 to be you know the ones that teach you know that really get a lot of experience with particular classes so they tend to be the, you know, the better ones to teach them but in this case it was just a little different but primarily yes we use full time
11:21:11 faculty.
11:21:13 We do provide replacements for them, you know when they teach in the program.
11:21:19 So, you know, so, departments are compensated for that, but yeah we generally use full time faculty and yes they go to the facilities and have unbelievably amazing experiences that's, you know, people who have taught in the program faculty who have taught
11:21:40 in the program.
11:21:43 Without an exception, have said that it was one of the most transformative teaching experiences they've had one is because of the students, like I said, the students are just so motivated.
11:21:58 I think some of this could be explained by the fact that, on average, they tend to be older.
11:22:03 I'd say on average, they're probably 30 years old but they can range anywhere from 19 years old, up to.
11:22:13 I don't know there's a student in my class now, who I think mentioned he's in his 60s. So, you know, there's a wide range of ages which, and also I think many of them have had
11:22:27 colorful experiences in their past that helped to provide that help to for them to be able to get their heads around I think some of the concepts that we talked about in class because they actually have experiences where they can say, Ah, I, you know,
11:22:46 I get that were a lot of times they think traditional students, you know maybe that's not.
11:22:52 Maybe you know they haven't had the same breadth of experience and, and maybe some of the, I don't know, dynamic experiences I hate I don't want to say negative things about it but you know what I mean, like right yeah so.
11:23:06 So, how does a student get into the program, do you just take everybody or is there a process.
11:23:23 No we you know we're limited and how many we can take.
11:23:16 So, And we also want to.
11:23:21 We want to, you know, maintain the rigor and the integrity of the program.
11:23:27 So, you know, we use impart we use the regular university admissions process so all of that, you know, the criteria will be the same for students coming on campus, as it would for someone in the SST program.
11:23:43 But in addition to that we ask them to write and trance essays.
11:23:47 We give them props, and they can pick one of the prompts to write their essay and then the advisory board for the scholar serving time program reviews the essays and ranks them and then we kind of select students in that way.
11:24:05 So, just out of curiosity, do you have more applicants than you have space in the program right now. Oh yes. Yes, for sure, but we always make sure that like for those students who who maybe didn't make it in the first round, we always, you know, encourage
11:24:24 them to apply the next round, because you know sometimes we do try to select students who are going to be there, you know for at least a couple of semesters.
11:24:36 In fact, the core group of students we have at each place are ones who are going to make it all the way through to get their degrees.
11:24:45 However, you know, we do, you know, always try to, we do let students know that you know they should try again. If they didn't get in the first time.
11:24:57 And you know, I hope that encourages them to, you know, kind of, revise their essays or write new essays that you know maybe are more compelling and so on.
11:25:09 So, um, so do these courses so let's say that somebody is in the program and they're they're able to get released and they don't have their associates degree completed.
11:25:18 So, can they take these courses with them or is it only specific to the program.
11:25:22 Oh no these are these are course, these are the courses that we're offering are the same courses that we're offering on campus.
11:25:31 You know, they're primarily general education requirements so the 102 hundred level classes.
11:25:39 And, yeah, they will transfer definitely transfer to any middle state university or college, for sure, and likely to transfer to pretty much any, any college or university in fact I've had people be released already that were it was unexpected because
11:25:59 of coven they've been, you know, releasing people under.
11:26:04 It's called the care sacks, which basically releases people that maybe have health conditions that make them vulnerable to, you know, if they were to get coded so.
11:26:17 So, in, in one of those cases already I, you know, help the person kind of fill out her FAFSA, and.
11:26:26 And her admission application before she left and she is actually starting a BA at Minnesota State Mankato, one of our online offerings because she lives in Alabama.
11:26:41 But she is going to be starting in January and one of our MBA programs so.
11:26:48 And that's, that's part of my role as the program director is to help facilitate those kinds of academic transitions.
11:26:57 That's great. so you don't just like oh you're being released figure it out on your own you help them with that transition, which can be scary, no matter how old you are.
11:27:04 Oh yeah, exactly. So, so Dr. Hunter I know that your research area kind of links into this program we research about reentry experiences and. So, how did this program, come to be I mean what Where did the idea start and what did it take to get it going.
11:27:22 Yeah. Um, well, I you know I've always been interested since I even as a graduate student before I got my PhD I've always been interested in women's experiences of getting out of prison, particularly experiences of mothers.
11:27:42 And I think that stems from my own experience of incarceration very long ago. More than 30 years ago.
11:27:51 Wasn't a long time but long enough that I understand, you know, the that position, you know what it's like to be in that position, and someone while I was incarcerated.
11:28:02 The Education Director, encouraged me to go to apply to college, she thought I was really great. And evidently, she was right, I guess I am, here I am.
11:28:14 Yes you are. Yeah.
11:28:17 But anyway she encouraged me and I literally started started college within two weeks of getting out of prison and stayed in college until I got my PhD, which was like 11 years.
11:28:28 Wow.
11:28:31 So, yeah. So that was kind of I guess what got me interested in the topic in of both women's reentry but also just the impact of education because for me.
11:28:44 Getting a high, you know, getting a college education.
11:28:49 Really just helped me to develop a very different picture of who I was and who I could be in the future.
11:28:59 So it would never have done done me, prior to that to go to college.
11:29:05 I just I guess I just never saw that as something that was within my reach. So, um, yeah so my hope is really, that this program has a similar impact maybe not, PhD pathway because that's just not for everybody but I hope it has a similar.
11:29:24 Similarly impactful
11:29:27 effect on you know students in the program, men and women alike. I hope that they. I hope that it really transforms them. And I think it could also have transformative implications for their families and communities I know it has for my family and I guess
11:29:44 my community since my community now is this university and part.
11:29:49 Right, yeah.
11:29:52 Well, and to be such a good role model I mean if their children see that they're working on their associates degree, even while they're serving time, that can be inspirational for them to continue their education as well.
11:30:02 Yes, that's absolutely true.
11:30:20 Like, they look like little flags but they're just made out of cardboard that say have like the logo and the Minnesota State Mankato logo.
11:30:31 And I brought those in and put them in their packets that they got on their first day of classes, and immediately they were like can you give us more of these so we can send them home to our families like I want my I want my kids to see this but I'm a
11:30:43 college students so it's just, you can just tell how much it means to them and how much they believe it's going to mean to their family members, sometimes it's their parents sometimes kids, you know partners.
11:30:57 So, yes.
11:30:59 So how are you so if they got their associates degree or even just started working on the coursework. How could this help someone integrate back into the community and society when they're released.
11:31:09 what do you see the benefits being there. Yeah, well I mean I think probably the ones that, that are the most obvious have to do with employee ability.
11:31:17 or even having some college versus a high school degree increases the likelihood that someone is going to be able to you know be gainfully employed so there's that obvious thing.
11:31:35 But I think to me. What is more, what what has a more long term effect is really just that, that it that personal transformation that, um, you know, being able to like really internalize the, the notion that I can do hard things and succeed at them like
11:31:58 I can do things that are really difficult. like statistics and, you know, certainly, understanding and applying theory.
11:32:08 And I can, I can do those things that I maybe thought previously would not be something I could do so I think that's super important.
11:32:16 And when we talk about when people talk about reentry experiences I think oftentimes what they mean is a person getting out of prison, getting a job and supporting themselves maybe supporting their families.
11:32:33 But to me, you know for someone to be truly integrated into the community experiences like higher education really helped to support true integration because it gives them the tools, the vocabulary.
11:32:50 The under kind of the breadth of understanding of how the world works, so that they can be in a meaningful way be civically engaged, like active participants active citizens that participate in their communities, so that they can get involved in activism
11:33:08 or, you know, understanding who they want to vote for like really understanding issues in a way that helps them, you know, to be able to participate in a meaningful way not that's fulfilling for them.
11:33:23 So I'm going to kind of circle back to the program again. How did you decide where you want it to offer the programs and were there any barriers to getting the program started in those three facilities.
11:33:35 Oh my goodness. that is to be questions. So, I'm sorry.
11:33:39 That's okay. And I'll try to keep it brief but, um, so back in 2015 I worked with a former dean Her name was Kim Greer, and she, she and I were both incredibly passionate about this.
11:33:58 And I won't go into the details of the different funding streams, but we applied and thought that we were going to have, be able to you know get these funding streams to start this program in 2015, in 2017, again in 2017.
11:34:18 And then, finally, recently, we were able to not we I cuz she's actually moved on to California state now. Um, but, and so, so yeah I guess when you ask how did I decide which facilities, I kind of didn't decide the funding streams did.
11:34:40 Okay, so, um, you know like the federal government put out a solicitation for a program it was Sega, so I jumped on that and applied and and and was able to get that.
11:34:52 But after, after, like I mentioned some of the some of the disappointments that we experienced earlier on.
11:35:26 Oh, just a second here we're going to just pause for just a second.
11:35:31 Vicki you froze on me.
11:35:34 Okay, there you go.
11:35:37 Yeah, yeah we froze on each other here. Okay, so you were just mentioned that you were talking, you had about two months to get the professors and then it froze so I just pause it there so if you want to pick up from two months to get the professors,
11:35:50 Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, we're back we just had a little tech Yeah.
11:35:55 So you had two months ago professors and get the program. Yes.
11:36:01 Yes. And that was, that was a that was monumental lift but it happened and I think sometimes when you're so excited about having something you wanted, you know, you wanted so badly.
11:36:12 It didn't feel like that heavy of a lift but but it was.
11:36:16 Well, then, within a few weeks of that program starting, I got a call from the Minnesota doc asking if I would be willing.
11:36:30 If I would be willing to start a program like that at fair bone Shakopee. And I said, Absolutely.
11:36:38 Sign us up.
11:36:40 And so, yeah, so I wrote up that contract and, yeah, get that approved to so that's there we are, at three prisons. Yeah, so did all three prisons start last January, or was it was secret first and then the other two in the fall here, if we seek a started
11:36:55 first and in the spring semester.
11:36:58 Fair bow was supposed to Pharaoh and Chuck D were supposed to start in the fall, but we actually ended up, offering to summer courses at fair bow.
11:37:07 So, to kind of get them started. So, yeah.
11:37:12 So I know that you had a prior relationship with shock up with a class that you and the former Dean krim Kim Greer created. I know it's a different class and not part of the program but it's so interesting.
11:37:24 Can we just talk about that classroom, what it was. Yeah, absolutely, and and you know as the coven restrictions.
11:37:33 Go away. Hopefully, we hope they do, at some point, we plan to actually offer that course as part of this program as part of the scholar serving time program but right now they're just not letting.
11:37:46 They're not letting a lot of people in so we're lucky to be able to get our professors and to teach the classes so.
11:37:53 be able to get our professors in to teach the classes so. But anyway, yeah so the this.
11:37:55 That's call it that course was the title of the course was identity work in women's reentry. And it was a course that used social psychological theories to help provide kind of framework for understanding the research on women's experiences of re entering
11:38:15 communities from prison so that was the title of the course but probably what makes the course special is that it had a combined classroom of incarcerated students and students from Minnesota State Mankato campus.
11:38:31 So we would bring 15 students from the campus to the prison, each week. During that semester, and whole class at the prison together and it was just it was an amazing experience.
11:38:44 It was amazing every, every year that I taught it with, with Kim, of course, and then eventually with Laura Harrison. She and I taught it together to after Kim.
11:38:55 Excuse me. After Kim.
11:38:57 After Kim left for a different position.
11:39:01 So, but, you know, students, one of the things that the outside students used to say a lot was that they had no idea how much they had in common with incarcerated people, and the incarcerated students by the end of the semester would say, we had no idea
11:39:20 how much I how much they had in common with just everyday, college students you know and they had a vision of college students as being kind of, you know sheltered snobs who were horn rimmed glasses and, you know, They had these very kind of stereotypical
11:39:39 visions of college students and college students kind of had a sense of incarcerated people as being kind of scary.
11:39:46 And, you know, dangerous, and they both groups, very quickly learned that, you know, that they had their humanity in common and in fact, many of them had a lot of other experiences in common.
11:40:03 So, such good community building I mean we are more alike than we are different and that's a good way to find that out. Right, right. Yeah, well I imagine your scholars serving time program also does the same thing of making a sale college professors
11:40:16 university professors are not so scary and that we can you can have good dialogue there too because I know we have, you and I both have experienced this where students come in and they think we're very different than we actually are and just people to
11:40:30 so that must be very interesting for them.
11:40:32 must be very interesting for them. Yes, yes I definitely think that is the case with them, they like I've said before, they are much more talkative, then students on campus tend to be like on campus you know you you really don't.
11:40:49 You kind of it's kind of like pulling teeth sometimes to get a real conversation going.
11:40:54 Not in these classrooms they I mean the one thing I would say is they don't seem to be as intimidated by college professors in, you know, in the prison classrooms, they're very respectful I don't mean it like that, but they don't, they don't, they won't.
11:41:14 You know, they don't hesitate to participate in the conversation, they're excited to do that actually and to have the, you know, to them they see it as just a,
11:41:31 you know, a college professor, come, come there to teach them a class to them that just, you know, feels like a huge opportunity and they're excited to be in the classroom.
11:41:41 So, well this is such a wonderful program. How about if we kind of wrap up with what are your hopes for the future of the program.
11:41:48 Oh, well, I guess I will be honest and saying that I really hope that we're able to establish a be a program at at least some of the facilities that have the numbers to support it i mean i guess we have to think about sustainability too but I'm sure for
11:42:08 certain fer Bo I think could support it, they have, and probably with Sega, I'm not sure about Shakopee is, I would love to offer a program there.
11:42:17 But whether or not you know they would have enough eligible people to support it would be something we'd have to work through but yeah I just.
11:42:30 And I guess, I look forward to a time when I can actually share more stories about students who have been through the program and the things they do with their education, whether that be kind of moving straight into some type of job, or, or, you know,
11:42:50 Moving on to more education and just doing wonderful things with their lives so I look forward to that too because you know just you always want to have something that you can something tangible, that you can kind of say like see this is, this is, this
11:43:10 is what this program has contributed to what I am sure in the near future, you're going to have somebody come to you and say what you did to the accurate education director.
11:43:17 Thank you doctor on through you you help change my life, I, I hope so I hope that happens, I mean yeah for their sake.
11:43:26 Although I would love the kudos but.
